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    ATWELL, SARAH E. v. LISLE PARK DIST
    
    In the
    United States Court of Appeals
    For the Seventh Circuit
    
    No. 01-2520
    
    Sarah E. Atwell,
    
    Plaintiff-Appellant,
    
    v.
    
    Lisle Park District,
    
    Defendant-Appellee.
    
    Appeal from the United States District Court
    for the Northern District of Illinois, Eastern Division.
    No. 00 C 7267--Charles P. Kocoras, Judge.
    
    Argued January 8, 2002--Decided April 12, 2002
    
    
    
      Before Posner, Coffey, and Diane P. Wood,
    Circuit Judges.
    
      Posner, Circuit Judge.  The defendant
    park district, an Illinois public entity,
    employed Sarah Atwell as its director of
    development. About 15 months after hiring
    her, the Park District retained a law
    firm to investigate allegations of
    "financial improprieties" and "misuse of
    funds," including "unauthorized
    expenditures of Park District funds and
    the concealment of those expenditures." A
    target of the investigation, Atwell was
    suspended with pay, told that an
    investigator would contact her, and
    instructed to cooperate with the
    investigation. She retained a lawyer.
    Shortly afterward, the investigator, a
    lawyer for the law firm investigating the
    allegations, met with Atwell in a parking
    lot to pick up some Park District
    property that Atwell had in her
    possession and in the course of this
    encounter told her that a grand jury was
    being convened to investigate the allega
    tions and that, in light of the grand
    jury's involvement, Atwell's lawyer would
    probably advise her that it would be
    prudent for her to exercise her
    constitutional right to remain silent.
    Sure enough, her lawyer advised her not
    to agree to be interviewed by the law
    firm that was conducting the
    investigation. The Park District then
    fired Atwell (after notice and an
    opportunity for a hearing) for
    insubordination in failing to cooperate
    in the investigation and for receipt of
    unauthorized salary payments. The suit
    charges that her termination violated her
    right not to be compelled to incriminate
    herself and that after firing her the
    Park District deprived her of property
    without due process of law by publicly
    releasing false information about her,
    including information that would prevent
    her from obtaining comparable employment.
    The district court dismissed the
    complaint for failure to state a claim.
    
      The government is not allowed to force
    a person to make a statement, even out of
    court, that might be used as evidence
    that he had committed a crime. It is not
    even allowed to pressure him into
    cooperating by threatening to fire him
    (if he's a government employee) for his
    refusing to provide such evidence.
    Gardner v. Broderick, 392 U.S. 273, 276,
    278-79 (1968); Chan v. Wodnicki, 123 F.3d
    1005, 1009 (7th Cir. 1997); Lenard v.
    Argento, 699 F.2d 874, 896 (7th Cir.
    1983). It has every right to investigate
    allegations of misconduct, including
    criminal misconduct by its employees, and
    even to force them to answer questions
    pertinent to the investigation, but if it
    does that it must give them immunity from
    criminal prosecution on the basis of
    their answers. Lefkowitz v. Cunningham,
    431 U.S. 801, 806 (1977); Gardner v.
    Broderick, supra, 392 U.S. at 276; Chan
    v. Wodnicki, supra, 123 F.3d at 1009. Nor
    can the federal government use those
    answers to assist it in its own
    prosecution of the person. Murphy v.
    Waterfront Commission, 378 U.S. 52, 79-80
    and n. 18 (1964); United States v.
    Balsys, 524 U.S. 666, 683 (1998).
    
      For these purposes, moreover, the state
    is treated as a unit: if the Park
    District insisted on Atwell's giving evi
    dence that might show she had committed a
    crime, the state's attorney could not use
    that evidence to prosecute her. Oddly,
    the cases do not bother to say this; but
    it is implicit in any case involving an
    employee of a department that does not do
    criminal prosecutions and it is his own
    department rather than the prosecutor
    that is interrogating him; and that of
    course is the standard case. See, e.g.,
    Gulden v. McCorkle, 680 F.2d 1070, 1071
    (5th Cir. 1982).
    
      Our court has ruled in several cases
    that the government employer who wants to
    ask an employee potentially incriminating
    questions must first warn him that
    because of the immunity to which the
    cases entitle him, he may not refuse to
    answer the questions on the ground that
    the answers may incriminate him. Riggins
    v. Walter, 279 F.3d 422, 431 (7th Cir.
    1995) (per curiam); United States v.
    Devitt, 499 F.2d 135, 141 (7th Cir.
    1974); Confederation of Police v.
    Conlisk, 489 F.2d 891, 894 (7th Cir.
    1973). This rule is unique. It has been
    rejected in two circuits, Hill v.
    Johnson, 160 F.3d 469, 471 (8th Cir.
    1998); Gulden v. McCorkle, supra, 680
    F.2d at 1076, has been expressly left
    open in two others, Wiley v. Mayor & City
    Council of Baltimore, 48 F.3d 773, 777
    and n. 7 (4th Cir. 1995); Grand Jury
    Subpoenas Dated Dec. 7 & 8 v. United
    States, 40 F.3d 1096, 1102 n. 5 (10th
    Cir. 1994), and has been followed in
    none, though the Second Circuit hinted at
    it in a dictum in Uniformed Sanitation
    Men Ass'n v. Commissioner of Sanitation,
    426 F.2d 619, 626-27 (2d Cir. 1970)
    (Friendly, J.). Outside the criminal
    context, government is not required to
    advise the persons with whom it deals,
    including its employees, of their legal
    options. Our rule is perhaps best
    understood as an anti-mousetrapping rule.
    Uncounseled persons are much more likely
    to know about their "Fifth Amendment"
    right than they are to know about an
    immunity that qualifies the right. Asked
    to give answers to questions put to them
    in the course of an investigation of
    their arguably criminal conduct, they may
    instinctively "take the Fifth" and by
    doing so unknowingly set themselves up to
    be fired without recourse.
    
      Whatever the merits of the rule, and
    whether, in light of its rationale, it
    has any possible application when the em
    ployee has a lawyer, we have already
    registered our agreement with the Fifth
    Circuit that there can be no duty to warn
    until the employee is asked specific
    questions. Riggins v. Walter, supra, 279
    F.3d at 431; Gulden v. McCorkle, supra,
    680 F.2d at 1076. The employee has no
    right to skip the interview merely
    because he has reason to think he'll be
    asked questions the answers to which
    might be incriminating. He may be asked
    other questions as well. Or he may be
    told that he can take the Fifth without
    repercussions. Or that the interviewer
    will merely draw an adverse inference
    from the employee's taking the Fifth,
    which is permitted in civil cases. Baxter
    v. Palmigiano, 425 U.S. 308, 316-20
    (1976). The statute authorizing grants of
    immunity to witnesses before Congress
    "does not authorize grants of immunity to
    persons who are not witnesses but may in
    the future become witnesses, may refuse
    to testify, and may claim their
    privilege. Nothing in the Act suggests
    that Congress meant to authorize grants
    of unlimited immunity to possible
    witnesses in exchange for undescribed
    evidence of undisclosed value in
    unidentified investigations." In re
    McElrath, 248 F.2d 612, 615 (D.C. Cir.
    1957) (en banc) (plurality opinion); see
    also United States v. Di Mauro, 441 F.2d
    428, 440 (8th Cir. 1971). Witnesses
    before congressional committees who plan
    to take the Fifth if asked certain
    questions that they expect to be asked
    cannot on that account refuse to show up
    at the committee hearing--in fact, they
    commit a misdemeanor if they refuse to
    show up. 2 U.S.C. sec. 192; Wheeldin v.
    United States, 283 F.2d 535 (9th Cir.
    1960) (per curiam).
    
      Atwell was not being asked to meet with
    the investigator in the absence of her
    lawyer. With her lawyer at her elbow to
    advise her, she would have known which
    questions she could refuse to answer (but
    for immunity) on self-incrimination
    grounds. If she refused to answer a
    question on such grounds, and if our rule
    applies even when the employee who is
    being questioned has a lawyer--even when
    the lawyer is present at the
    interrogation--that would be the time to
    warn her that if she refused to answer
    the question despite the immunity the
    Fifth Amendment would not protect her
    from being fired for refusing to
    cooperate in the investigation.
    
      The wrinkle here is that the
    investigator (concededly an agent of the
    Park District for these purposes though
    employed by the law firm that the
    District had retained to investigate the
    allegations of financial improprieties)
    gave Atwell misleading advice--basically
    not to cooperate with the investigation.
    It was in the form of a prediction, but
    was likely to be, and we may assume was,
    interpreted as legal advice. Had Atwell
    not had a lawyer, the Park District might
    conceivably (our tentativeness is
    deliberate) be estopped to deny that
    Atwell had a Fifth Amendment right not to
    cooperate with the investigation, though
    most cases refuse to base estoppel on a
    misrepresentation of law, reasoning that
    the plaintiff could have consulted a
    lawyer. E.g., Utah Power & Light Co. v.
    Federal Ins. Co., 983 F.2d 1549, 1556
    (10th Cir. 1993) ("no one can be deceived
    by a misrepresentation of law because
    everyone has access to the law"); Quality
    Finance Co. v. Mitchell, 423 So. 2d 1262,
    1266 (La. App. 1982). This "equal access"
    theory is unrealistic, though not as
    unrealistic as grounding a principle that
    misrepresentations of law are not
    actionable in the hoary maxim--a
    testament to the embarrassing tenacity of
    legal fictions--that everyone is presumed
    to know the law, United States v. Marine
    Shale Processors, 81 F.3d 1329, 1349 (5th
    Cir. 1996). We are reassured by Glus v.
    Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal, 359
    U.S. 231, 235 (1959), which rejects any
    blanket rule against basing estoppel on a
    misrepresentation of law; but we needn't
    pursue the issue further here.
    
      It is doubtful that estoppel could ever
    bring a case in which there was no
    violation of the Constitution into
    federal court under 42 U.S.C. sec. 1983,
    the statute under which Atwell sued,
    which creates a remedy for violations of
    federal rights under color of state law.
    Atwell had no federal right, whatever the
    Park District may have told her. The Park
    District therefore could not have
    violated her federal rights. If it misled
    her into not cooperating with the
    investigation and then fired her for not
    cooperating, it might be guilty of fraud
    or breach of contract under state law,
    Board of Education v. A, C & S, Inc., 546
    N.E.2d 580, 591 (Ill. 1989), but there
    would be no federal violation.
    
      If she had had a contract under which
    she could be fired only for cause (which
    apparently she did not), she might have
    tried to estop the Park District to plead
    that her refusal to cooperate with its
    investigation was cause for firing her,
    though she would doubtless be met by the
    proposition of Illinois law that estoppel
    will lie against public agencies only in
    extraordinary situations, Cities Service
    Oil Co. v. City of Des Plaines, 171
    N.E.2d 605, 607 (Ill. 1961); Monat v.
    County of Cook, 750 N.E.2d 260, 270 (Ill.
    App. 2001), which we assume this was not,
    considering that it wasn't even an
    employee of the Park District who
    allegedly misled the plaintiff. These
    cases illustrate the traditional judicial
    reluctance to apply estoppel against the
    government. Office of Personnel
    Management v. Richmond, 496 U.S. 414, 419
    (1990); Estate of Kunze v. Commissioner,
    233 F.3d 948, 952 (7th Cir. 2000); Gibson
    v. West, 201 F.3d 990, 994 (7th Cir.
    2000). In any event, whether estoppel
    would lie would be a matter of state law;
    it would have nothing to do with this
    suit, a suit under federal law.
    
      Even if we brush all these problems to
    one side, we are left with the bedrock
    principle that a reasonable person
    represented by a lawyer does not rely on
    the legal advice given him by an
    adversary, which was the status of the
    investigator in relation to Atwell, as
    she well knew. A reasonable person in
    Atwell's position consults his or her own
    lawyer. Atwell did. The lawyer gave her
    bad advice. For that she may have a
    remedy against the lawyer, but she has no
    remedy against the Park District.
    Estoppel requires reasonable reliance on
    the misrepresentation of the party who is
    sought to be estopped. Heckler v.
    Community Health Services of Crawford
    County, Inc., 467 U.S. 51, 59 (1984);
    Teamsters & Employers Welfare Trust v.
    Gorman Bros. Ready Mix, No. 01-2029, 2002
    WL 417405, at *5 (7th Cir. Mar. 19,
    2002); Rager v. Dade Behring, Inc., 210
    F.3d 776, 779 (7th Cir. 2000); Frahm v.
    Equitable Life Assurance Society, 137
    F.3d 955, 961 (7th Cir. 1998); Elmore v.
    Cone Mills Corp., 187 F.3d 442, 447 (4th
    Cir. 1999) (per curiam). Reliance on a
    known adversary's legal advice is not
    reasonable, especially when one has ready
    access to a lawyer of one's own. See In
    re VMS Ltd. Partnership Securities
    Litigation, 26 F.3d 50, 52 (7th Cir.
    1994); In re Larson, 862 F.2d 112, 115
    (7th Cir. 1988); Office & Professional
    Employees Int'l Union, Local No. 471 v.
    Brownsville General Hospital, 186 F.3d
    326, 336 (3d Cir. 1999); Vadino v. A.
    Valey Engineers, 903 F.2d 253, 263-64 (3d
    Cir. 1990); Elk Park Ranch, Inc. v. Park
    County, 935 P.2d 1131, 1138 (Mont. 1997).
    
      Atwell's other claim is unrelated to the
    Fifth Amendment's self-incrimination
    clause. It invokes the principle that
    while reputation is not liberty or
    property within the meaning of the due
    process clauses, and so defamation, a
    tortious injury to reputation, is not a
    constitutional tort, e.g., Siegert v.
    Gilley, 500 U.S. 226, 233 (1991); Paul v.
    Davis, 424 U.S. 693, 711-12 (1976); Klug
    v. Chicago School Reform Bd. of Trustees,
    197 F.3d 853, 859 (7th Cir. 1999),
    occupational liberty is a form of liberty
    under those clauses; and so the
    dissemination of false information that
    renders a person unemployable is a
    constitutional tort. Hedrich v. Board of
    Regents, 274 F.3d 1174, 1183-84 (7th Cir.
    2001); Bone v. City of Lafayette, 763
    F.2d 295, 297-98 (7th Cir. 1985); Lawson
    v. Sheriff of Tippecanoe County, 725 F.2d
    1136, 1138-39 (7th Cir. 1984). Atwell
    alleges dissemination of false
    information about financial improprieties
    and receipt of unauthorized salary but
    not that the dissemination of either form
    of false information deprived her of her
    occupational liberty. The false
    information the dissemination of which
    she alleges deprived her of that liberty
    is "other" information (her word) not
    specified in the complaint or in any
    other document filed by the plaintiff or
    found in the record.
    
      Ordinarily a plaintiff is not required
    to plead specifics. Swierkiewicz v.
    Sorema N. A., 122 S.Ct. 992, 995 (2002);
    Leatherman v. Tarrant County Narcotics
    Intelligence & Coordination Unit, 507
    U.S. 163, 168 (1993); Beanstalk Group,
    Inc. v. AM General Corp., No. 01-2164,
    2002 WL 406985, at *6 (7th Cir. Mar. 15,
    2002); Kirksey v. R.J. Reynolds Tobacco
    Co., 168 F.3d 1039, 1041 (7th Cir. 1999).
    Ordinarily therefore it would be enough
    in a case of this sort for the plaintiff
    to allege that the defendant had
    disseminated false information with the
    consequence of depriving her of liberty
    of contract. See Codd v. Velger, 429 U.S.
    624, 627-28 (1977) (per curiam); Austin
    v. Board of Education, 562 F.2d 446, 449
    (7th Cir. 1977); Whitney v. New Mexico,
    113 F.3d 1170, 1175 (10th Cir. 1997);
    Lentsch v. Marshall, 741 F.2d 301, 305
    (10th Cir. 1984); Little v. City of North
    Miami, 805 F.2d 962, 969 (11th Cir. 1986)
    (per curiam). This case is unusual,
    however, because so far as appears from
    the complaint, the only information
    disseminated by the Park District,
    whether true or false, was information
    concerning the alleged conduct of Atwell
    that resulted in her termination after
    notice and an opportunity for her to be
    heard. Whether the dissemination of such
    information has rendered Atwell
    unemployable is irrelevant. The due
    process clause does not forbid
    deprivations of liberty as such, but only
    those deprivations that are effectuated
    without due process of law. If the state
    provides notice of and an opportunity to
    be heard concerning allegations that if
    publicized will render a person
    unemployable, the person has no ground
    for a federal claim should the
    allegations, having been sustained
    without due process being denied, later
    be publicized as the grounds for the
    person's having been fired. See Garcia v.
    Kankakee County Housing Authority, 279
    F.3d 532, 535 (7th Cir. 2002). Should the
    state later issue embroidered
    allegations, allegations that exceed the
    scope of the hearing and as to which
    therefore the employee had no notice and
    opportunity to be heard, that would be a
    different case. But when pressed,
    Atwell's lawyer was unable to indicate
    any such embroidery, and we infer that he
    does not understand the elements required
    to make out a "defamation plus" claim--in
    other words that he is really just
    alleging defamation.
    
    Affirmed.
    

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